Marines plan urban combat training in Indiana cities

Tedd, I am hurt! Your wouldn't want to have this Marine around? Am I not good people...

Where the hell is my taser? Got to zap Tedd a few times...

About 2,300 Marines

1 or 2 is OK.....

We're not talking about the moving Vietnam Wall memorial where both veteran and active military personnel are expected. Those folks I can hang with around the clock with no problem. They're family.

We're talking about an orchestrated mock invasion of We the Unarmed People by We the Armed and Expertly Trained People. The scenario is already skewed as to be potentially oppositional on levels taken for granted by many.

Or the real Vietnam wall, I have about 1000 photos of the wall as it was put up, before and after and many of the people down on the mall, those are family, the green kids however on the mock invasions...that is another crowd.....totally...

Tedd:
Actually, the Louisiana Maneuvers prior to WWII went well as the soldiers mixed in with the local population and even slept in their houses and were occasionally fed by them. I don't think there's a reason to be concerned about 2,600 of them, it's a training necessity. Now if they were sending an entire division or something, then I'd wonder.

My stepson was (is) a Marine. Alone or in small groups they were fine. When you get a full squad or platoon they get scary. The marines are taught to obey whatever the officer tells them without question. I do not like the idea of 2300 marines in any city that is not already under martial law.

It's difficult to get a man to face death if he won't take orders. They're no more scary than the police are to me.

A lot of the police WERE Marines. You should be scared of the whole lot.

I disagree, they wouldn't be using a combat unit for such a thing. That's why we have the National Guard.

But Scott, isn't much of the NG over in Iraq and Afghanistan 'combating'?

nearing:
Much of it is, yes, but our regular units are sent to fight before National Guard units so, to me, it makes very little sense for a regular unit to train in Indianapolis for the expressed purpose of being used against the American people in some situation. If they were going to be training for that purpose they would be training a National Guard unit that is home from the warzone currently because, as has been mentioned, the President can now activate National Guard units without their state governor's permission. If they were training a National Guard unit in Indianapolis I wouldn't be as skeptical that the govt is planning for a day in the near future when they institute martial law. Since it is a regular military unit it makes sense that they are training to fight in Baghdad because that is their job and a real city is far superior training to anything that the military could build a mock-up of on a base. Plus, there will be real people around and they may have to negotiate traffic or other obstacles inherent to an urban area to accomplish their training mission. This is, on its most basic level, priceless training for our soldiers.

national guard units might balk at arresting their own people. Scott, you can make all the excuses and explanations you like, this still has a very sinister overtone.

Since it is a regular military unit it makes sense that they are training to fight in Baghdad because that is their job

So are these troops coming home from Iraq to train here and then be returned to Baghdad? I am confused as to why they aren't there already and 'training' there.

And, aren't our troops supposed to be pulling OUT of Baghdad? Why do they need training to go there?

I am claiming a little bit of ignorance on this subject and am not being snarky here.

Wheel:

national guard units might balk at arresting their own people. Scott, you can make all the excuses and explanations you like, this still has a very sinister overtone.

They had no compunction shooting and killing students at Kent State in the 1960's, I fail to see why they would have similar hesitations about simply arresting citizens in today's world. Can you explain to me why they would?

nearing:

So are these troops coming home from Iraq to train here and then be returned to Baghdad? I am confused as to why they aren't there already and 'training' there.

I'm guessing that, yes, they are likely in their "training" phase after which they will be redeployed to Baghdad. Typically they go in a cycle of deployment, furlough, training & rest at their home base and then deployment again.

As for why they aren't training in Baghdad, training doesn't take place in an area that is not secure. Baghdad is not nearly secure enough for American troops to be training there. If they go out into the urban areas of Baghdad, there is a chance they will encounter hostiles which makes training impossible. In training many times they have limits such as using dummy ammo or other things that are not suited for combat. That is why they would have to conduct it in a safe area and Baghdad is not safe enough to conduct training in. That is why they would do it here rather than there.

And, aren't our troops supposed to be pulling OUT of Baghdad? Why do they need training to go there?

There is a redeployment of force regarding the number of soldiers we have in Baghdad, which sectors they are ceding to Iraqi troops, etc. However, this is a 2,600 troop contingent so my guess is that they are tapped to be in Baghdad for most, if not all, their next deployment. They will likely be replacing a unit that is stationed permanently in Baghdad that conducts patrols there and is responsible for security so they are being given urban training now while they are not deployed in-country.

They had no compunction shooting and killing students at Kent State in the 1960's, I fail to see why they would have similar hesitations about simply arresting citizens in today's world. Can you explain to me why they would?

Hardly the same thing. Scared, angry people on both sides at Kent state lead to tragedy. We're talking about systematic and ruthless suppression of rights over a fairly extended area for an indefinite length of time in a worse case scenario, hardly the same thing. And, though I seriously don't expect that to happen this particular time, the fact remains this training is, in fact, training for martial law.

They will likely be replacing a unit that is stationed permanently in Baghdad that conducts patrols there

So are these urban training sessions being conducted here now and have they been all along and we just happen to have heard of this one?

Wheel:

Hardly the same thing. Scared, angry people on both sides at Kent state lead to tragedy. We're talking about systematic and ruthless suppression of rights over a fairly extended area for an indefinite length of time in a worse case scenario, hardly the same thing. And, though I seriously don't expect that to happen this particular time, the fact remains this training is, in fact, training for martial law.

So if you think that regular military units wouldn't do this, why won't they step in to block National Guard units from doing this? They've taken an oath to protect the Constitution against enemies both foreign and domestic.

This may be training to impose martial law, but it isn't training to impose martial law in the United States. It is training to impose martial law in Baghdad.

nearing:

So are these urban training sessions being conducted here now and have they been all along and we just happen to have heard of this one?

If I had to guess, I think they likely do happen more often than they are publicized. I think they just get publicized when someone in the area doesn't appreciate it. I know for a fact that our Special Forces A-teams train among the civilians that live around Fort Bragg in North Carolina and that the civilians willingly participate in their training. I imagine that other cities probably have similar types of training deals worked out with other bases. If you can find me some specifics about what type of training they are doing in Indianapolis I might be able to speculate more precisely about how often this type of training happens.

So if you think that regular military units wouldn't do this, why won't they step in to block National Guard units from doing this?

What are you talking about? Scott, you're so eager to make every excuse you're not even making sense.

. We're talking about systematic and ruthless suppression of rights over a fairly extended area for an indefinite length of time

Convince them that the people they are suppressing are "the enemy" and dangerous and they will go to the work with a will.

Wheel:

What are you talking about? Scott, you're so eager to make every excuse you're not even making sense.

I reversed the two units. Why wouldn't National Guard units be used to block the feds using a regular army unit in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act?

Why wouldn't National Guard units be used to block the feds using a regular army unit in violation of the Posse Comitatus Act?

I'll take a shot at that. Because they are the same thing? Someone help me out here. What recent Executive order or allows the president full control of the National Guard over the objections of the Governors, even to the point of moving them around from state to state?

In fact, take a hike to the National Guard official website and follow the chain of command. In fact, check out the new uniforms since that change where the VA and MD and TX, etc. are gone from the insignia.

You say you are a marine? Scott, I'm getting cynical. I apologise. The more I talk to my marine friend and re read your comments I tend to think you have a good heart, but are missing some of the details in the passion of the moment.

My friend has been in combat in Iraq. Has set up road blocks there. He's not even questioning the insanity of what is happening in Indy. His stance is that it is nothing like the reality of Iraq. Higher Command knows this. More realistic scenarios and training are done now with paid (to the scale of Blackwater) Arabs that are bi-lingual and provide realistic conditions.

But thanks for argueing the point. I've learned a boat load more from having to respond. Unfortunately it's not good stuff.

Allan:
No, I'm not a Marine. I am a physical 4F and wasn't allowed to join the military. I studied with Marines at Miami University of Ohio, but I have never been enlisted in the services. Unfortunately, that simply was not an option open to me in this life.

I believe in the military, both National Guard and regular units, to refuse immoral orders and a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act would be an immoral order. We have built in defenses against the military establishment as a whole being wielded as a weapon against the American people and I trust those built-in defenses that our founders put into place. I understand that you are seriously concerned about this but it is not moving my needle much... it's business-as-usual.

it's business-as-usual.

That is indeed what it's all about.

Infohack, thank you. I think there's another part also. I think my mind forgets these things on purpose straight away or else I'd be a complete shut in and start calling myself Neo. I'm going out side for a moment. : )

your levelheaded comment warrants more attention

thats hilarious! thanks for the parity.

Clipped to the To MSNBC group.

I would before they seal off all the roads and airports.

Yes, please evacuate, in Fallujah the redneck servile Marines sent back all males 12 years and older back into the city to die....Sieg Heil!!!!

That is ridiculous Eric... those "redneck Marines" are the ones who die so you can talk sh*t about them. *shakes head*

Better stack up on your guns Americans

mars:
I'm in good shape. I have my .45 and some .22's... all I need is to acquire more ammo. LOL

They have pretty advanced simulation towns set up in Camp Pendleton as I recall, So not sure...

Me too. I don't know if my paranoia is warranted or not. I can see how this training could help them if they were deployed to Iraq or Iran, but it still makes me cringe. This kind of thing has been happening a lot lately.

One good thing about the military....at least the Army, I not sure about the Marine, probably more white racist, know nothings there......if black Marines see that the armed services are being used for fascist, racist attacks against its community, there will be some "fragging" of it its white officers, or Uncle Toms.

Class, race does matter.....even if the military thugs have no clue.

Maybe they want to spice it up a little; instead of the typical sites the Marines get use to, give them a new environment?

I'm all for upkeep of military morale, but if their entertainment is to be at the sake of the country they're sworn to defend then nobody ought to be spicing up a damned thing. Don't use cutesy terms to minimize this situation, thanks.

fugitive247:
It is more about surprising them with a new environment, observing how they respond and then going over the mistakes they made when faced with that new environment so they don't make them again.

Hey Scott, thanks for your perspective on this matter. It helps allay the paranoia somewhat...not completely, but somewhat:-)

gladbutterfly:
Happy to help. :-)

This is the start of desensitizing the Armed Forces about operating inside the US.

Afraid not:

http://www.topix.net/forum/source/hampton-roads-daily-press/TNKOP8T6UIC8TRR6V

What I wrote then seems to work:

"I disapprove of this, as I believe our founding fathers would also. These maneuvers on U.S. soil are not realistic conditions for other parts of the world. These maneuvers are simply to condition our own troops to the forth coming "patrols" on our citizens.

This behavior falls right in line with the circumstances set forth in Naomi Wolf's book, "The End of America".

And with the amount of money we are spending on our military, it would seem that we would have training facilities for urban tactics, which I'm sure we do anyway. Power lines? Please.

Fellow citizens, this is not a good thing. As they did in New Orleans, they will further train our Military to operate on U.S. soil, regulate our activities and take our arms. This is not what the United States Constitution provides for or allows.

We should oppose this activity."

My physical constitution just went way down. This is depressing as hell.

Infohack:
With regards to the fact that Indianapolis is a crowded urban environment with plenty of buildings and close quarters area, it resembles Baghdad finely. Baghdad is obviously a much older city, but cities have more or less had the same qualities throughout history: crowded and difficult for masses of troops to operate in.

I don't agree. Areas are different. Signage, construction, spacial layout, all combine to actually give false training if the urban area is different. If it's a matter of congestion, build it for retrofit to the country you're aiming at, or leave it generic for general maneuvers. There's no excuse for using US to practice on.

Infohack:

I think that's a bit of a stretch. I'll concede that there is undoubtedly some value in conducting an exercise in such a setting, but the training is much more applicable to a national emergency or terrorist attack on U.S. soil (language, landscape, infrastructure etc.).

Having been to Indianapolis, you'd be surprised how similar it is to Baghdad. The approach to the city will be similar because the flat land for a good deal outside Indianapolis is similar to the area coming into Baghdad. I-74 running into the city is reminiscent of the highway running into Baghdad (I think it's Highway 1 in Iraq but don't quote me on that) and the use of the mall in Indianapolis will acclimate the soldiers to dealing with the markets in Baghdad where the vendors set up in stalls of similar size, though obviously not nearly as nice with regards to the building materials used. Also they might throw in some specialized searches of office buildings to double for Iraqi govt ministry offices (or former office bldgs in Baghdad because office bldgs have similar construction) and they may include places where suspects would like to hide like a raid on a movie theater. Indianapolis offers many similarities to Baghdad as a city that aren't visible at first blush except for the weather and blowing sand. For that they would need to try the outskirts of Vegas but Vegas is rather different in important ways from Baghdad that Indianapolis is not. Not much in the way of neon lights to my knowledge in Baghdad. ;-)

Infohack:
The cultural differences are unfortunate, but I can't think of a city similar to Baghdad to conduct peaceful training in where the inhabitants speak Arabic, can you? This seems to be the best available option.

While I agree it's a little unorthodox, this is the first time that our military has faced daily urban combat in quite a while too.

. . .but I can't think of a city similar to Baghdad to conduct peaceful training in where the inhabitants speak Arabic, can you?

Detroit and Dearborn, MI both have large Arabic-speaking populations. 'Course, in Detroit you'd need live ammo for some of the less friendly, English-only denizens.

Bill:

Detroit and Dearborn, MI both have large Arabic-speaking populations. 'Course, in Detroit you'd need live ammo for some of the less friendly, English-only denizens.

I misspoke. I can't think of a city similar to Baghdad to conduct peaceful training in where the majority of the inhabitants speak Arabic, can you? It would have to be an American city also because as much as our allies like us, none of the Arabic speaking ones are going to adapt very well to our soldiers training in their city.

Although, you're right that a more realistic cultural training mission could be had in the Detroit area I don't think that Detroit resembles Baghdad enough physically to make it worth the military's while to switch the training from Indianapolis to Detroit. Indianapolis resembles Baghdad for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

It really hasn't much to do with Baghdad either Scott. It's simply training to operate in a large urban environment. During the Cold War most of US Army and Marine units trained to fight a conventional war of movement in open country. Indy could serve as any type of large city -- Mogadishu, Baghdad, Quetta, Jalalabad, the list goes on.

Since when? Probably about the same time we started shipping National Guard troops overseas. Which in MHO is an abuse of the National Guard.

Probably about the same time we started shipping National Guard troops overseas. Which in MHO is an abuse of the National Guard.

You mean like the famous 29th Infantry Division that went into Omaha Beach on D-Day?

The 29th Infantry Division (Light) is an Army National Guard unit with elements in Virginia, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey and Connecticut. The "Blue and Gray" Division is the only light infantry division in the entire reserve component.

The 29th Infantry Division was the vanguard of the Allied attack on the hostile shores of Omaha Beach on D-Day, June 6, 1944. The 29th Division was sorely disappointed every time the D-Day invasion was postponed and felt almost a sense of relief when they finally loaded the landing craft, even though the conditions were adverse. The attack to begin the liberation of France will long be remembered as the beginning of the Allies' "Great Crusade" to rekindle the lamp of freedom and liberty on the continent of Europe. Teamed with the 1st Division, a regiment of the 29th (116th Infantry) was in the first assault wave to hit the beaches at Normandy on D-day, 6 June 1944. Landing on Omaha Beach on the same day in the face of intense enemy fire, the Division soon secured the bluff tops and occupied Isigny, 9 June.

"Get smarter here!! TM"

Uh, that's because the active-duty force is about 1/2 to 1/3 the size it was at the time of Desert Storm.

I want to make it clear that I was expressing sarcasm in comment 9.0.

The government might be ok with it, but are the people of Indianapolis ok with it.

I think the mayor has oversteped his powers a little bit here.

Calm down, folks.

why?

Read the comments. Knee-jerk panic. It's silly.

Well I did read the comments. It's not silly, but since you started it, why is it silly? What's knee-jerk about having US Marines in combat mode, against the laws of the land, stopping you and I and potentially causing trouble? Oh and conditioning the troops to police civilians? Oh and using our dollars to do it? Oh and not protecting the boarders?

Did you read my comment? This is not some sinister new plot. If you follow the links in my post, you will see that the Marines have been doing this for years.

I'll post the links again with more obvious headlines.
Marines on Main Street
The Marines land in Atlanta
The Marines land in Arizona
More Marine training in U.S. cities

This is not some sinister new plot.

Indeed, it's an old sinister plot.

Well I did read the comments. It's not silly, but since you started it, why is it silly? What's knee-jerk about having US Marines in combat mode, against the laws of the land, stopping you and I and potentially causing trouble

Yes its is silly, because most of those criticizing it have no idea what they are talking about.

Such as your statement about it being:

against the laws of the land

It is not against the laws of the land, or it wouldn't be happening. If you believe it is, please provide a reference to the exact law being violated.

And it's not like it's impossible to stop them.

Toledo, Ohio Mayor Refuses Marines Urban Combat Training Excercise

They're not intimidated, as they should be

From one of the Marines in urban training. They are being taught that US citizens SHOULD be afraid of the police. BTW does anyone know which is a large recruiting pool for the police forces? (Hint - Semper Fi)

It is not against the laws of the land, or it wouldn't be happening. If you believe it is, please provide a reference to the exact law being violated.

Listen to infohack for enough questionable material to file suit, especially when this whole idea leads to situations and enforcement as in what happened in New Orleans with Blackwater where they did violate constitutional rights.

If you can't see the writing on the wall, be prepared to turn around and face the squad. I do know what I'm talking about when it comes to the progression of our rights being taken away. In that context this stuff should scare the @!$%# out of you.

It is not against the laws of the land, or it wouldn't be happening.

This makes me laugh, especially seeing the constitution ripped apart by executive orders and legislation that is "passed" without debate. Violations of our rights happens everyday. Just ask the parents of children that have lost their legal rights to their children with out ANY due process.

wouldn't be happening.. what a joke.

Allan:
It has been pointed out that municipal authorities, like those in Toledo, Ohio, have declined to have the military train there. If the military really were intent on subjugating cities wouldn't it simply override the municipal authorities in the cities they wish to train in?

It has been pointed out that municipal authorities, like those in Toledo, Ohio, have declined to have the military train there. If the military really were intent on subjugating cities wouldn't it simply override the municipal authorities in the cities they wish to train in?

We elect officials to manage the municipalities and operate by the constitution. They do not have the authority to disregard our rights. Had the military disregarded the requests, the repercussions would be greater.

This is training and conditioning for the troops. When they want to subjugate, Marshall Law will be in place. I'd say around October. NewsVine is going to be busy in September. I hope they get the comment tracker fixed by then. : )

Infohack:
Don't you think that the municipal authorities have the right to allow military training on areas that they are tasked to administer? If the civilians don't agree they can kick them out of office next time.

That's the question, do they have that authority? I think not.

Well, I agree with you on that Infohack. However, I'm focusing on the Indianapolis situation.

At least he had the sense to stop himself short of saying, "It's a new world. It's a new world order."

It's a BRAVE NEW WORLD, complete with genetic engineering, behaviour modification described as therapy, SOMA to keep everybody happy, and a despotic, and ruthless, ruler reminiscent of the regime in Brazil.

I said it earlier on this seed, now I say it again - this puppy has 3rd Amendment violation implications written all over it.

Then hire yourself a lawyer and take it to court, and waste your time and money.

If what you say is true, I'm sure the ACLU would have been all over it already.

There's no way DoD is going to risk a lawsuit by doing something govt lawyers haven't already vetted as pertains to current law.

jz6 - This sounds a wee bit naive. Of COURSE the government is going to try all sorts of stunts that are extra-constitutional. The ACLU will go to it when the time is appropriate. Wait for that to happen when someone is really hurt and gets standing....

They're NOT executing the laws or superseding the police. They're training in the city and then leaving. This has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878.

This has nothing, whatsoever, to do with the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878.

Just as the Patriot Act is about fighting terrorism and the Real ID Act is about securing our boarders, and the Florida DCF is about helping children. These exercises are ALL about the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878.

a Marine assigned to the border as part of the ""war on drugs"" mistaken shot and killed a student herding his family's goats.

What was he doing? Just executing?

I could be misinformed but as per my understanding of that situation the Marine in question was fired upon and defended himself.

As for how Posse Comitatus figures into all of this it's been a few years since I read up on the act so I don't recall where training figures in. That being said over the past 30 years or so the laws about what does and does not fall under Posse Comitatus have been loosened up to allow our troops to help with the "War on Drugs" among other things.

Personally I have no objections to our troops training on US soil.

~P

What has that got to do with a training exercise in Indiana? Was the Marine who shot the student on a training exercise? No.

What has that got to do with a training exercise in Indiana? Was the Marine who shot the student on a training exercise? No.

I do believe we were talking about the Posse Comitatus.

No, we are talking about Marines planning urban combat training in Indiana cities. This particular thread of the discussion was sparked by ffeineandsugar's statement that "this puppy has 3rd Amendment violation implications written all over it". ("This puppy" meaning the "Marines planning urban combat training in Indiana cities".) You brought up the Marine who shot a student in response to objections that Marines planning urban combat training in Indiana cities, was not, as you suggested, a violation of the posse comitatus act. While you may be correct that the shooting of a student by a Marine may have resulted from a violation of the posse comitatus act, I don't see what that has to do with Marines planning urban combat training in Indiana cities.

I guess well find out in the next election. Your assuming the Marines have left by then. They might still be in charge of the town, then the citizens are not going to have a heck of alot of choice in the matter.... This mayor has it all planned out...

This is training for martial law, pure and simple.

This is the start of desensitizing the Armed Forces about operating inside the US.

…As they did in New Orleans, they will further train our Military to operate on U.S. soil, regulate our activities and take our arms. This is not what the United States Constitution provides for or allows…

All of these are excerpts from comments our fellow Viners have made here, in this thread, all of which do relate to Posse Comitatus.

~P

Oh. My mistake, I thought we were talking about facts in this thread, not speculation.

Oh. My mistake, I thought we were talking about facts in this thread, not speculation.

When did Posse Comitatus become speculation?

Allan:
I believe the point he is making is what does this Marine shooting a boy herding animals have to do with the military conducting training in Indianapolis.

Marine + U.S. soil = questions on Posse Comitatus.

You can call it training if you want. I think most of us see it as something more. They are interacting with the public. That's crossing the line.

Allan:
The PCA forbids them from enforcing laws... if they are training, they won't be enforcing any laws.

Infohack:

So when does training cross the line? Is it when some kid who forgets the joint in his ashtray that gets discovered during one of these "volunteer" searches is busted by the cops or FBI who are there acting as liasons, or simpy the intimidating effect on the population of having U.S. troops doing manuevers in U.S. cities?

If I had something illegal to hide I think I would simply stay with friends outside the city for the duration of the training. They won't be there too long. A week, at the most. Also, I don't know the specifics of this training mission, but it is illegal for the military to use the private domiciles of any citizens who don't volunteer to be part of the training. Insomuch as they can't do that, staying out of the city should keep private citizens who want no part of it safely away from what they don't want to experience.

I don't know if it's because I was raised in a family where most of my relatives served in some capacity, but I think it would be great if a military unit came to Hamilton or Cincinnati to conduct their training because I'd enjoy talking to the soldiers during their downtime as well as observing their training missions while they were running them. I don't find this intimidating in the least but, rather, to the contrary I find it something that we civilians could do that would help us be a part of this war that we so conveniently forget so much. That is one reason why I would happily invite them to my city to do their maneuvers. However, I realize that not everyone feels like I do and they certainly have the right to not like it and not want to participate.

I find it something that we civilians could do that would help us be a part of this war that we so conveniently forget so much.

That's why we'll never agree. To me, it's not a war. It's the neocon agenda. When congress does it's constitutional duty and declares war, then we can talk. Or more importantly, when congress impeaches these criminals, which by default they are, then we'll talk.

In the mean time, I suggest we keep the military off our streets until they are really needed.

You are right, Allan, this isn't a war. I wish we would stop speaking of as such.

It is an occupation.

Big difference.

Allan:

That's why we'll never agree. To me, it's not a war. It's the neocon agenda. When congress does it's constitutional duty and declares war, then we can talk. Or more importantly, when congress impeaches these criminals, which by default they are, then we'll talk.

You can call it a conflict or a picnic, I don't care. I do know that for our soldiers who are fighting there, it is a war. Whether we agree with the war itself or its aims, I still think it is the least we can do to help more of our soldiers come home alive by offering up our cities to training that will help them stay alive when doing their duty, however politically distasteful, in Baghdad. If you want to blame someone, blame the American people for re-electing Bush and blame Hillary Clinton for not running against him in 2004. It is not our soldiers' fault and I don't think we should punish them by denying them resources because we don't like the man they have to take orders from according to the Constitution which makes Bush, big an idiot as he is, the Commander in Chief.

Well it can be argued that we actually didn't elect Bush, but that's another story. Also, I wouldn't go throwing all marines into one group. In fact the marine I work with to stop Real ID has been to the "conflict", is a combat veteran and would be the first to tell you what is going on there is fubar and that what is about to happen in Indy is wrong, wrong and more wrong.

I think you miss the point. All the soldiers should come home now. That's what they deserve. That's the support we should give them. And as my good friend the marine puts it, he swore and oath to up hold the constitution and he's convinced fighting this war breaks that oath. That oath over rides any illegal action he is ordered to do, even by the Commander and Chief. This "war" is a straight up, no doubt about it, illegal act.

And I don't want to blame some one. I want the madness to stop, but blame has to go somewhere. There are crimes to be accounted for. Crimes against our constitution.

btw there is no one I respect more than a marine who actually understands the constitution.

I still think it is the least we can do to help more of our soldiers come home alive by offering up our cities to training that will help them stay alive when doing their duty,

Little fear tactic scott? Oh our poor kids, but this training will keep them Safe! If the bad liberals will just leave them alone!

Wheel:

Little fear tactic scott? Oh our poor kids, but this training will keep them Safe! If the bad liberals will just leave them alone!

In case you hadn't noticed I'm one of the biggest, baddest liberals on Newsvine.

You're the logical one... would you like to make the argument that less training will result in less casualties? Or that less realistic training won't result in more casualties? Go ahead, I'm looking forward to it.

my argument is this, whatever the overt reason for this exercise, the fact remains it is nothing less than martial law training. When it's combined with the notion of desensitizing US soldiers to operating on US soil there is always room for concern.

Will it save lives? That remains to be seen.

Will it desensitize soldiers to operating in the US and citizens to the notion of armed forces on the street. You betcha'

Is that a cause for real concern? Absolutely.

Will serious infringements of citizens liberties result from this exercise, including anything from invasion of privacy to potentially violent confrontations with civil protest groups? Almost certainly so.

the fact remains it is nothing less than martial law training

Fact? Fact? As of now you have produced nothing to establish that as fact.

I must agree with Perry O. There is no proof that this is anything other than what they say it is which is training as a unit in a large urban environment that the military cannot accurately replicate. It may result in some of the things you mentioned, but there is no proof at all for the statement Perry O highlighted of your's.

Fact? Fact? As of now you have produced nothing to establish that as fact.

That's an impossible question. Are they ever going to admit it? I don't think so.

But lets listen to an Iraq combat veteran for a second.

1. Better urban training is already provided for.
2. This puts our troops out in the open for target practice if there really is a terrorist threat.
3. If it's training and someone runs a road block, what are the legal reactions?
4. Why do we pay air fair or transportation cost for Legume to go to Indy when other urban areas are already close by and more doable?
5 This training is completely different than what will be experienced in Iraq. (Higher Command knows this.)
6. Legume has 14.1 million on the books to build an Urban training facility to be completed next year. (public knowledge).
7. "It's bloody insane and the public had better wake up. This is nothing more than conditioning the public at the public's own risk."

So for me, I tend to believe someone who understands the constitution and can explain in tactical terms why a young boy could be shot by a marine and no one is at fault. Which at the end of the day is why the Posse Comitatus Act is pertinent today and should be given the benefit of the doubt.

Marines in the civilian population is not a good idea. They will have live ammunition somewhere. They will not deploy without it. Makes sense to me.

Allan:
With regards to your veteran friend, I'd be interested in his responses to what I say if you would be so kind as to act as intermediary. As I understand it, the numbered points are made by him so my responses are directed to him.

1. Better urban training is already provided for.

Where?

2. This puts our troops out in the open for target practice if there really is a terrorist threat.

In what sense? The number of soldiers participating in this training are less than one quarter of one percent of our entire force. I think it is an acceptable risk especially since our enemies would much rather kill civilians since it draws more attention and creates more terror. Why kill our soldiers in Indianapolis and blow the cover of a cell they could use to kill civilians when they can just as easily kill soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan?

3. If it's training and someone runs a road block, what are the legal reactions?

I'm guessing the local authorities pull them over since they are the ones in charge of setting the scene properly for the military to run their training scenario. As I said, anyone that doesn't want anything to do with this can simply steer clear of the areas they'll be using. The media has reported them ad infinitum.

4. Why do we pay air fair or transportation cost for Legume to go to Indy when other urban areas are already close by and more doable?

Which cities are closer by and resemble Baghdad more than Indy? As I pointed out, the flat land coming into the city on I-74 resembles the desert surrounding Baghdad coming into it on the major highway. Furthermore, are these cities that are closer and a better fit even willing to allow the soldiers to train there? It is the local govt's right to decline to participate as Toledo, Ohio did. How do you know that these cities you're identifying didn't decline to participate or wanted more money to do so?

5 This training is completely different than what will be experienced in Iraq. (Higher Command knows this.)

Feel free to tell me how this training will be "completely different" than what will be experienced in Iraq as I already discussed with nearing the advantages to using Indianapolis as a training ground for soldiers going to Baghdad. If the "differences" are that there's no one shooting at them then that isn't really a difference because engaging the enemy isn't a training mission, it is a combat mission.

6. Legume has 14.1 million on the books to build an Urban training facility to be completed next year. (public knowledge).

It is also public knowledge that that facility is not completed yet and when it is it will only accommodate 600 soldiers at one time. There are 2,600 soldiers participating in the Indianapolis training session. Do you really want to train only 23% of your unit at a time and run that training mission 5 times? Also, if you don't train all 2,600 soldiers at once they will have no experience operating as one contiguous unit in an urban environment... the 600 that trained in each of the 5 training missions will be used to operating with approx. 1/5 of their unit in an urban environment, not the entire thing.

I'll email him your comment and see what happens. Good questions, which I only have a cursory response to from what he said so hold tight.

Will do. Thanks.

Scott

It is not our soldiers' fault and I don't think we should punish them by denying them resources...

Who's punishing whom? Punishment is ideally a corrective disciplinary counter-measure in direct response to an unacceptable/unlawful behavior.

No immediate unacceptable/unlawful behavior has been demonstrated in Indy yet where our Marines are concerned. However, we're not talking about a pig roast where some folks might party above and beyond what local law and community standards allow. If this were the case, then there would likely end up being a lot of folks, both military and civilian, racking up charges in the "drunk and disorderly" department. And when damages are incurred, some form of restitution is appropriate.

The upcoming training exercises are not a regional social event. I wish they were. Who will ultimately be left dealing with the potentially negative effects? It sure won't be the Marines. Again, who's being punished?

I was talking about the fact that some believe the war is wrong is not a reason to deny our soldiers the ability to train in Indianapolis.

btw there is no one I respect more than a marine who actually understands the constitution.

best lines I've read today. G'night, all!

Show me a Marine that understands the consitution. Then show me one that will refuse any unlawful order based on that understanding. There are none.

I can find some, I assure you.

Show me a Marine that understands the consitution. Then show me one that will refuse any unlawful order based on that understanding. There are none.

Retired.

Isn't this always the case? But I would suggest it's only the politicians that are thinking in these terms and maybe some businessmen, not the citizens.

Has there been an outcry from the cities' citizens?

Perhaps it is with good reason that the US is the capital of conspiracy theorists.

Perhaps it is with good reason that the US is the capital of conspiracy theorists.

It seems most are NV members.

Silly, when the jackbooted thugs of facism place the jackboot of martial law on the necks of a compliant and sheep-willed American public, one of the first things they'll do is shut down all flights out of the country. Not to mention the borders. What? You thought that wall in Texas was to keep people out? Get out now! While the sound of the goose stepping jackboots are still only a faint drumming sound in the distance! By the time they are loud enough for everyone to hear them, it'll be too late!

At least I don't live too far from the Canadian border... Maybe I can get over somehow; the only problem is that Canada can get pretty cold...

Hey, with global warming, we're gonna be the North Carolina of Canada in Ontario:-)

Silly, when the jackbooted thugs of facism place the jackboot of martial law on the necks of a compliant and sheep-willed American public, one of the first things they'll do is shut down all flights out of the country. Not to mention the borders.

I'm getting confused now...are we talking about US military or alien robots?

Didn't those huge bad-guy robots in the movie Transformers wear big jackboots, and step on some necks?

I can't say, as I haven't seen Transformers. I guess I need to do a little research. To the cinema!

Perry:
You're missing out... I enjoyed Transformers greatly. I don't remember jackboots but the Decepticons sure were an evil bunch. ;-)

I guess I need to do a little research. To the cinema!

Transformers isn't the kind of cinematic research material called for in this situation. Try Red Dawn. You should be able to find the director's cut online via torrent. [YouTube trailer]

WOLVERINES!! I saw Red Dawn when it came out in theaters.

In this day and age, they're all cows until proved otherwise. : )

ASDJ:

If the people of Indiapolis are well-informed ahead of time about the duration of the training, about what to expect, and given reassurances that live ammo will not be used in the city (hopefully), then perhaps the local citizens will be prepared and not panic. I work on a college campus and during the summer when not all of the buildings are in use, our local police and university police do training sessions. They use the empty buildings to practice dealing with hostage situations, drug busts and preparing for campus violence that we hope never comes. The university students and staff are given plenty of warning about the training so that no one panics or gets the wrong idea. I, for one, am glad to know I'm protected by law enforcement that won't be flying by the seat of their pants if something terrible like that ever happens. I feel our military should be trained to protect me and themselves in the same way.

I'm so glad that you took my points to heart. I bolded the most important part of what you said as it relates to civilians. I have rarely known the military to not take every precaution to protect the people in the area they are conducting training in and the most important part to remember is that this training will save lives on the ground in Iraq. At a certain point we have to believe that the better angels of the soldiers in our military and the police on our streets will prevail. I do not believe that many military members would go along with using force against the population unless there was absolute pandemonium and it was the last option just like those SWAT teams training at your university are doing it so they can handle a hostage situation or school shooting in a way that minimizes mistakes and saves lives. When I lead a political campaign I train my people mentally like the military trains its soldiers: I surprise the hell out of them during training to see how they will react. That way, when the pressure is on nobody panics and loses their head because they are familiar with the fear and anxiety they are feeling and can overcome it to think and do their jobs in themidst of chaos.

this training will save lives on the ground in Iraq.

That conclusion is in doubt. What is not in doubt is that this will cause civil problems.

Wheel:

That conclusion is in doubt. What is not in doubt is that this will cause civil problems.

In doubt my ass. Training large groups always results in better efficiency and efficiency in this case is fewer deaths on the battlefield. You're letting your bias against the Iraq war color your view of the worth of this training.

I'm still waiting on my friend's reply, but in the mean time, I got the impression that this type of training wouldn't help. Training yes, in Indy, not really.

I don't doubt that you're an ass Scott. I doubt the validity of this training and in fact I doubt the supposed reason behind this training.

sorry infohack.

Wheel:
Okay, we'll play that way. I won't open myself up to anymore jabs. What you're saying is bullsh*t and, even worse, it's bullsh*t that you refuse to defend. You back it up by saying you doubt everything they say publicly and, when asked for proof, we're left with why you think I'm an idiot for being a theist: your "feelings" about the govt and, apparently, your penchant for all things conspiratorial. At least I believe in a God that has no effect on anyone other than me... your belief that the govt is hinky leads you to want to block these soldiers from training in an urban environment because you're afraid some day the same 2,300 will come back to arrest or kill you during martial law. Trust me, if the govt wanted to push you around they have much rougher ways to do it than training a military unit in Indianapolis. You can take your namecalling and your illogical beliefs and shove them both up your pompous ass.

what does god have to do with anything I've said here? You seem to have slipped a gear somewhere. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you haven't had your morning coffee yet.

Otherwise I'd have to say that this little rant kind of taints anything else you might have said here, don't you think?

What proof do you have that this training has anything to do with oppressing you?

What evidence do you have that it won't be turned to that purpose in the future?

What evidence do you have that it will serve any useful purpose whatsoever?

Why do you suppose benign intent in an administration that have never been benign and has become increasingly aggressive and irrational as it's term ends?

Wheel:

What evidence do you have that it won't be turned to that purpose in the future?

A logician such as yourself knows that I cannot prove a negative. You have made the positive claim, now it's your deal to support it with evidence or an argument or, well, something.

What evidence do you have that it will serve any useful purpose whatsoever?

Military history. Ask anyone involved in the military if training saves lives and if more training is better than less training... they will answer in the affirmative to both questions.

Why do you suppose benign intent in an administration that have never been benign and has become increasingly aggressive and irrational as it's term ends?

If they used Blackwater in New Orleans, why wouldn't they be training Blackwater in Indianapolis? Clearly they don't trust our own soldiers, National Guard or regular military, to detain, injure or kill U.S. citizens based on who they deployed to New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina.

If they used Blackwater in New Orleans, why wouldn't they be training Blackwater in Indianapolis? Clearly they don't trust our own soldiers, National Guard or regular military, to detain, injure or kill U.S. citizens based on who they deployed to New Orleans in the aftermath of Katrina.

I suspect it has more to do with Blackwater making money and the fact that national guard troops were in Iraq rather than doubts of the effectiveness of National Guardsmen. Although that thought is properly paranoid and does you proud. :)

Military history. Ask anyone involved in the military if training saves lives and if more training is better than less training... they will answer in the affirmative to both questions.

proper training certainly saves lives, I'm not convinced that this training will accomplish the stated goals. I feel certain, based on the past behavior of this administration, that there are unstated goals of an intelligence nature that will be accomplished. I could be wrong, but I think even you will agree that I'm probably not.

I cannot prove a negative.

You're right, sorry.

Infohack:

Scott, take a stroll through declassified documents obtained through FOIA and then explain to me, regardless of proof of intent, why we should trust in the benevolent nature of the DoD.

You'll never catch me arguing that the Bush administration is benevolent... I just don't think that this training mission in Indy is as malevolent as some people are concerned that it is.

Wheel:

I suspect it has more to do with Blackwater making money and the fact that national guard troops were in Iraq rather than doubts of the effectiveness of National Guardsmen. Although that thought is properly paranoid and does you proud. :)

I don't deny that the administration has an authoritarian bent. However, I think that the last 40 years have convinced them that the military and National Guard are not useful domestically. They are tied to the govt and they can be stopped and held responsible by different authorities other than the President such as officers that refuse to execute their orders. The 60's onward have illustrated that the American military is not a monolith and it cannot be wielded as such by a govt intent on oppressing the people. The military used against the American people is like using a balsa wood bat to hit a MLB fastball: it'll fragment immediately. Used against non-Americans it is strong as steel; used against the very populace it was composed from, many within its ranks will choose to defend the people rather than fight them. That is the beauty of the American military being composed of all ethnic groups and soldiers from all 50 states; it is representative of the people in a way that, say, Saddam's army was not. It was Sunni and used to oppress Shia and Kurds.

The fast development of Blackwater, however, is a different story. It is a corporate entity that has equal firepower to our military and one indisputable leader: Erik Prince. I could conceive of a situation where a Democratic Congress would have to call on our military to fight with Blackwater soldiers should Blackwater be used as a modern day Praetorian Guard. Our soldiers are pledged to defend the Constitution, not the President. Blackwater soldiers are pledged to do what Prince says. Therefore, I have no problem whatsoever with our soldiers training in Indy but if it was Blackwater I would say they should get their own facilities and get the fu*k out. Our military is the last line of defense against private entities like Blackwater... I want them to be prepared to face Blackwater down if they have to.

proper training certainly saves lives, I'm not convinced that this training will accomplish the stated goals. I feel certain, based on the past behavior of this administration, that there are unstated goals of an intelligence nature that will be accomplished. I could be wrong, but I think even you will agree that I'm probably not.

I don't disagree that there's likely something going on that the public isn't privy to, but I don't think it is a threat to the public.

My main point is there's no place to train this many soldiers cohesively except a city. As has already been stated, the biggest facility would hold 600 of them and that facility hasn't even been completed yet. They may have to operate with more than 600 soldiers together in Baghdad and I think they should have the opportunity to learn to operate as one unit with all the distractions inherent to an urban area.

Infohack:

The DoD is not the Bush administration, but you make some solid arguments in the next comment. We are in agreement that Blackwater is a more serious threat.

The DoD is actually a good example as well. The bureaucracy there would likely entrench itself and refuse to function under the President if he was doing something it considered unethical. The Pentagon already showed itself to be a wilder beast to tame than Rumsfeld expected... he tried to take them in a direction they didn't want to go and he finally had to resign after trying to wrestle it to the ground, unsuccessfully. When Rumsfeld cracked the whip, he was shocked when instead of cowering in fear the Pentagon bureaucracy united to prevent anyone being singled out for punishment and started leaking information contradicting not only Rumsfeld but the President himself. The nice thing about a fiefdom like the Pentagon is that they are rarely aggressive: they're more intent on defending their turf.

Not only in Blackwater would they face an extra-governmental military force, but they would also be looking at a force trying to displace them. If Bush thought that the Pentagon was stubborn before, wait until it perceives that it is fighting for its governmental life and budget.

The thing that concerns me the most about Blackwater is that they have used money to hire the best of the best from the military that will leave for money. When you're skimming off the top, you're typically looking for a way to undermine the entire system and own it. Prince is likely looking for no different and I'm sure Bush is relieved to find a force that he can finally control without all the bullsh*t the Pentagon gives him when he tries to get something done. The govt pays Blackwater and he gives them orders. It's as simple, and dangerous, as that.

I also agree that in general most within the military ranks will choose to defend the people rather than fight them. But history has shown that all that is necessary to turn countrymen against each other is to create divisions among the people and and create "us" vs. "them" mentality.

I would argue that we are a country very much divided, and a major galvanizing event could serve to deepen those divisions and create a situation where domestic use of military force could be justified in the name of national security.

I think we were much closer to such a confrontation when Truman fired MacArthur and many started to seriously question civilian control of the military during the Korean War. MacArthur came back and made noises like he wouldn't be opposed to being the head of a military coup. If our country was going to be plunged into a military junta it would have been in those short years after WWII when veterans were everywhere and one of the most popular and enduring military commanders, MacArthur, was relieved of command and sent to pasture. MacArthur's biography isn't called "American Caesar" for nothing.

There was a reason that FDR had machinegun nests set up on many corners in D.C. :-)

Remember Detroit in, I think, '67? Burned down 12 square blocks and Johnson deployed the 101st Airborne. We've stepped back from the abyss, not into it.

BTW, were you training with 2,300 other soldiers in your unit? Because to my knowledge the military's biggest training facility will accommodate 600 soldiers and it hasn't even been built yet... it's due up next year. How do you maintain unit cohesion during training when you don't train the unit together?

How do you maintain unit cohesion during training when you don't train the unit together?

My friend answers this in his reply. Sorry for the format, I didn't specify how Newsvine works. I tried to bold his responses. If something doesn't jive, I may have labeled the quotes improperly.

Sir, I answer you from a background as a Marine, with 2 enlistment's, multiple deployments, over 2 1/2 years of training or actual combat in a desert environment, 3 NON-LETHAL WARFARE COURSES (where I was OC sprayed as part of my training….gotta love it!!), and time spent studying tactics and such since I was 13 years old. I have studied US tactics, Soviet tactics, guerrilla warfare (I encourage you to read War in the Shadows), modern terrorism worldwide (as far back as 1950's time frame), and counterinsurgency. In other words, I understand tactics from a conventional force, as well as unconventional. While I deem myself as no expert, I do have an understanding of what is going on. 1. Better urban training is already provided for. Where? {29 Palms… Camp Pendleton… Camp LeJeune… Kuwait… Ft. Polk, LA… the list goes on…} 2. This puts our troops out in the open for target practice if there really is a terrorist threat. In what sense? {Well, from my experience in the Corps after 9/11, each unit has Marines designated as 'guardian angels' for the unit… this handful (usually 4 per Company/Battery) carries one magazine of live ammo…don't beg me for the exact quantity…just rest assured it's pitiful. Any student of terrorist tactics will realize this handful is no defense against a terrorist with a Dragunov rifle…}The number of soldiers participating in this training are less than one quarter of one percent of our entire force. I think it is an acceptable risk {Not in my book, brother!!} especially since our enemies would much rather kill civilians {So the death toll in Iraq is ONLY civilians?!}since it draws more attention {HELLO!! Throw Brer Rabbit back in the brier patch!! What a better target…civilians AND Marines.} and creates more terror. Why kill our soldiers {Marines are not soldiers, buddy!} in Indianapolis and blow the cover of a cell {Check the range on a Dragunov or .338 Lapua Mag, couple with a suppressor…disappear after the damage is done…how does THAT blow their cover?} they could use to kill civilians when they can just as easily kill soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan?
3. If it's training and someone runs a road block, what are the legal reactions? I'm guessing the local authorities pull them over since they are the ones in charge of setting the scene properly for the military to run their training scenario. {Brother, as a Sergeant, only my chain of command is telling me what to do. Last time I checked, the local police did not have authority over my tactics at the small unit level. Once you set me in a training scenario, it's game on…train like I fight…brutally. I have had my lip busted, nose bloodied, been thrown to the ground face first in this 'urban warfare' training, while acting as a civilian.} As I said, anyone that doesn't want anything to do with this can simply steer clear of the areas they'll be using. {So, are we to say that we should be inconvenienced just for military training? I think not! Reroute MY trip, just because the military is coming to my town? Yeah right…'Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.' My right to free travel is an essential liberty.} The media has reported them ad infinitum.
4. Why do we pay air fair or transportation cost for Legume to go to Indy when other urban areas are already close by and more doable? Which cities are closer by and resemble Baghdad more than Indy? {Indianapolis resembles Baghdad?! ANY city in this country resembles Baghdad?! Give me a break… I've driven through Baghdad multiple times.} As I pointed out, the flat land coming into the city on I-74 resembles the desert surrounding Baghdad {Flat land resembling the desert? Yeah….I've been to the Mohave desert… but I don't remember Indianapolis anywhere near.} coming into it on the major highway. Furthermore, are these cities that are closer and a better fit even willing to allow the soldiers to train there? {The intelligent cities, perhaps? Most large military base towns don't really like the military folks…until we are in their stores spending money. When I came back from Iraq, the local town near my base was all sorts of happy to have us back…Welcome Home Marines!! We Love You!! Blah blah…. Then, shortly after, back to the same old humdrum…. I found out from the cleaners I used to take my uniform to that they had almost folded due to lack of BUSINESS THAT WE GAVE THEM! Not that I served for thanks from anyone…just the sheer hypocrisy of it all mind-boggles me} It is the local govt's right to decline to participate as Toledo, Ohio did. How do you know that these cities you're identifying didn't decline to participate or wanted more money to do so? {Like I said, the smart ones…} 5 This training is completely different than what will be experienced in Iraq. (Higher Command knows this.) Feel free to tell me how this training will be 'completely different' than what will be experienced in Iraq as I already discussed with nearing the advantages to using Indianapolis as a training ground for soldiers going to Baghdad. If the 'differences' are that there's no one shooting at them then that isn't really a difference because engaging the enemy isn't a training mission, it is a combat mission.{ Here we go…I'll keep this one in point form…. 1-Language 2-Culture 3-Terrain 4-Weather 5-Weapons Maintenance (which is drastically different in the desert environment) 6-American Women distracting our boys…yes, it happens. 7-Ease of communicating with the civilians here. Legume {LeJeune, I presume? I beg of you, don't butcher his name… The man the base was named for was Lt.Gen. John A. LeJeune who was a Marine's Marine, and served for 40 years…} ed. note: I think I started that mistake, Allan's bad. has 14.1 million on the books to build an Urban training facility to be completed next year. (public knowledge). It is also public knowledge that that facility is not completed yet and when it is it will only accommodate 600 soldiers at one time. There are 2,600 soldiers participating in the Indianapolis training session. Do you really want to train only 23% of your unit at a time and run that training mission 5 times? {It's worked before…my unit never had a problem with it.} Also, if you don't train all 2,600 soldiers at once they will have no experience operating as one contiguous unit in an urban environment...{Show me one case in Iraq where an entire Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) has been used to set up roadblocks and that type of jazz… ONE case where an entire MEU was used ANYWHERE IN IRAQ (the initial invasion)…} the 600 that trained in each of the 5 training missions will be used to operating with approx. 1/5 of their unit in an urban environment, not the entire thing.
Also, if you want to talk about 'realistic' training…. The most realistic training I ever had for urban desert warfare was while in Kuwait. This training was done by a company called MPRI…a group of the most professional ex-military men I've ever seen. The reason we cannot realistically train for things here in the US, is because of politically correct folks. Awww, poor Mr. Marine who broke a leg in training….we should stop the whole evolution, and have a safety stand down, even though said Marine was an idiot, who refused to listen to the guidelines and safety brief. Come on….I don't wanna hear this realism pitch… I've been to a few realistic scenarios. All were wonderful, and we need more of it. IN CLOSING (and I thank you for your time)….ever since my birthplace in Parris Island, as a Marine, I was taught that my primary mission was to 'seek, close with, and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver….or to repel an enemy attack'. While I understand the elements of the three-block war, and the changing face of battle, bottom line remains that as a Marine, I kill, I destroy, I break things… Unfortunately, in my humble opinion, my Corps is being changed into a riot control force and a SWAT team. You want a road block in Iraq? Want a terrorist arrested (instead of killed as I'd prefer it, with the exception of some intelligence potential) there? Have the Iraqi police do it….trust me, they're good at people control….Saddam rarely had a riot. Rarely had protesters. Rarely had anyone speak against him. Now, if you want an enemy force destroyed, send the Marines. You want to wipe out the existence of a military unit? Send the Marines.
-----ASK ANY COMBAT ARMS MARINE IF HE LIKES NON-LETHAL WARFARE OR LETHAL WARFARE BETTER. Give ya one guess as to his answer… This is my primary reason against my Corps being used in cities….unless it is open warfare.
One last thing…..when in the F%#K are the Iraqis gonna take over their own internal affairs?! Hell, then we can go invade Iran and every other damn country our government deems necessary in this never ending war on terror.

-Allan speaking..... I hope we can bring from this a basic reality of one thing: This marine is against training in an American city. He understands the dangers of having trained warriors running drills from a tactical perspective, that is how things can go wrong and the potential for disaster. He understands the constitutional boundaries we should not cross for reasons of further degradation of our rights. And he understands the practical reasons this sort of training is not beneficial to the Corps when weighed against the other training options available.

We can not, unfortunately ask him to participate further in this discussion. We could ask him to join the Vine and become involved later on in further discussions, which, frankly, I will not do. He is busy fighting other battles and his time is better spent doing that. I am aware of what he's doing and he works voluntarily as a patriot trying to help us all hold on to the constitutional rights we have.

By installations I mean the bases. I was in a very small unit. There were only a hand full of us back then. I don't know how many they have now, but only about three hundred world wide in the 80's. We worked in teams, but not as a whole.

There are several military bases that are just really small cities. We did urban training at a few of them.

You also have to consider that 2300 soldiers is not one unit unless your talking about an MEU (Marine Expeditionary Unit) that is actually formed around a battalion. These are the bad boys of our military. They know how to do the deed hard, fast, and right. I love those guys, but I don't know if I want them training in my back yard.

The main point to this should be, what are they going to gain from doing this in a city as large as Indianapolis? And why do they need Bush Stadium as a training site? Do they have large sports arenas in Bagdad?

I'm sorry if you feel that I'm wasting his time, Allan, but you should keep in mind that I am a campaign manager so discussion with me is not a dead end. If I'm convinced you're right I'll likely carry your view forward when I advise candidates and if I ever decide to run for office myself. I thank him for his time but if he does not want to hear my reply then we'll have to just agree to disagree. It is a shame though, because I was partially moving my opinion. No offense, but my time is valuable as well. Even though I cannot physically serve my country, I do so mentally through the political process. If my reply is going into a black hole and not contributing to further discussion, I will use the time to compose that reply for something else.

Please put the emotions aside. I never said or implied we were wasting his time. He would not consider it wasting his time either. In fact, our whole mission is to educate. What I said was that his time is better spent on what he is doing. His days are 16 hours long now. He has kids. To pull him into Newsvine is selfish and in my opinion, not the best use of his time or fair to the people that depend on him to organize elsewhere.

He leads others and in that role he is sorely needed. Since I started the group he now organizes, he would feel some loyalty and commitment to come here if I asked him. Reflecting on how much time I spend on Newsvine (and not really contributing much in the way of content) I don't think he could do both his leadership role in the patriot movement and follow Newsvine. It would consume him to read the opinions here and try to respond.

If you have questions that's fine, I'll take it a step further and engage him on the discussion again. But the moment I feel he's diverting his efforts from his tasks else where, or feel he's doing this out of loyalty to me, it stops. Fair enough?

Scott,

You have to consider that there are many of us (I am one of them) who want a large, strong military. And the best trained military. But at what cost.

The simple fact that 2300 Marine's could take a city like Indianapolis, if they had orders to do so, is a scary thougth. And you have to consider, you never send all your troops in to battle at one time. So training them as one unit isn't even a consideration. It does not work that way.

We also have seen this transition from a fighting force, to a police force of the military. Our boys are no longer allowed to do what they are trained to do. Now they have to police the enemy instead of eliminate. I am one for getting rid of the problem and going home.

If you really want to be moved, then read my other post. If I feel this way about training in an urban area like Indianapolis, then I am positive that many more feel the same way.

And the point about Indianapolis being like Bagdad is BS. See the points from my brother in arms above. The city of Indianapolis is more like some city in Canada. In military terms, Indianapolis would be a key city to control with as little damage as possible in a time of war or martial law.

That's fine, I just wanted to hit the reset button so we were all still communicating as equals. When that ceases, so does progress in a discussion.

BTW, could you let him know that I know very well that Camp Lejeune is spelled that way and know who it is named after? I don't want him to develop the notion that he is dealing with some "wet behind the ears" civilian that is trying to tell him how to do his job and doesn't know jack about the military. I've studied Military History since around the same age he has and would be where he was/is (if he's still in the military) if I didn't have a Chiari I malformation. Thanks. As for a response, I'm going to mull over his points, think on them and then respond. I do that when I have serious discussions with serious people... ask Shawn Gordon, he and I have had some good ones.

I'll tell him the Legunnnee problem. : ) My spelling is on par with English being a second language in a previous life. I did a Google search for the spelling and the first couple hits were incorrect. How was I to know!?

Thanks Allan... I suspect he felt it was disrespectful and I don't want him to get the wrong idea of me. :)

It's possible that if there is an invasion of the United States a contingency plan is to relocate the govt to Indianapolis because of the location of everything you cited as well as the fact that the Appalachian Mountains would act as a natural defensive barrier (and a real b*tch to any invading force trying to fight their way through ambushes in eastern Kentucky, West Virginia and other similarly rough areas). Plus, they couldn't bypass Cincinnati because of the danger of a troop breakout so they would have to fight through it as well as I've given a good look at its defensive capabilities and they are, well, stellar to say the least. Plenty of hills in the city, tight corners to ambush on and many high points on which to station snipers. D.C. would be an easier target geographically.

Not only that, but thanks to Eisenhower we could air raid them all the way by trucking JP4 and ordnance to impromptu air bases set up on interstates as the invader proceeded west. They might make it, but it will be damned expensive in men and materiel.

There would be no need to truck JP4. Grissom Air Force Base (now reserve) is the 434th air refueling wing. There is also Hulman Field, (F-16 181st fighter wing AFNG) located in Terre Haute, then there is the Naval Surface Warfare Center just south of Indianapolis. Believe it or not, with the combination of National Guard, Reserve and Active duty soldiers, this would be a perfect place to set up shop. Lets not forget the US Army payroll center at Fort Ben. They are wired IT and communications wise.

Now to put a damper on your point. There is no country that could possibly invade us at this time. (other than Mexico, they are already here.) The only country who could try it would be China and they don't have the navy to do it right now. But if we keep giving them all our resources and money, they might have it sooner than you think. Nice chatting with you, but I think we might be getting off topic here.

I was thinking the interstates in Kentucky and Ohio, fall back consistently with a coordinated retreat and bleed them dry. I've learned a good deal about Indy from you, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge.